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Talk:Grace Jones
This subject has been covered elsewhere, but reviewing the state of this article, I think it's worth asking again: how is Aunt Grace related to Indy? The article explicitly states that no one can answer with any certainty, but I see four possibilities: # She's Henry Jones, Sr.'s sister. # She's Henry Jones, Sr.'s brother's wife. # She's Anna Jones' sister. # She's Anna Jones' brother's wife. Now, there are other obscure possibilities—e.g. she's a dear family friend, and the term "aunt" is simply one of endearment; or she's a distant relative, called "aunt" because "third cousin once removed" is unwieldy. But in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, let's assume that one of the above is "true" (for lack of a better term when discussing a fictional universe). So what do we know about Grace? Not much. As nitpickers (and I use the term fondly) have pointed out, there's not even any direct evidence that her last name is Jones. We do know her son's last name is Jones. Again, some far-fetched explanations have been suggested (e.g. Frank is a son by an earlier marriage), but again, the lack of evidence for any of these suggests that her last name is probably Jones too. (In this case, this type of reasoning has apparently won the day, at least for now.) This conclusion eliminates possibility #4 above— "Unless Jones is Anna's married name and her maiden name!" I can hear you say. "We don't know Anna's maiden name!" True, but most people don't marry someone with the same last name, and there's no evidence Henry and Anna did. (Hopefully you're picking up a pattern here.) So let's eliminate #4. We also know Grace has a Scottish accent. Anna is American, so (ignoring far-out speculation) that eliminates #3. And her husband has an American accent, so that eliminates #2. That means she's Henry Jones' sister...and yes, that means her maiden name is Jones, and she married someone with the same last name. But in this case, unlike with Henry and Anna, there's evidence that leads us to that unlikely conclusion. (Note that this conclusion is not "fanon," as some have claimed. It's based entirely on the available evidence contained in official sources; the "fanon" term only applies when an imaginative fan inserts original elements into the canon.) Some contributors here might argue that the reasoning above relies on too many assumptions, and that those fringe explanations are enough to invalidate the conclusion. But we must rely on assumptions, or else no article on the whole wiki withstands scrutiny. To say "Mutt is Indy's son," we must assume that Marion wasn't lying when she revealed that fact in KOTCS. To say even something as simple as "Indy wears a fedora," we must dismiss the fringe explanation that extra-dimensional beings are projecting a holographic image of a fedora around Indy's head every time we see him. You get the point. We have to rely on the evidence presented and some basic assumptions in order to say anything. So, what do you folks think? Is it fair for the article to say that Grace is Henry's sister? --Icybro 01:59, 26 April 2009 (UTC) *I think we'd best stick with aunt of Indiana Jones for the moment... The only retcon that would make sense at the moment is just that Nancy Stratemeyer assumed Frank would be a Jones when writing her letter. [[User:Vetinari|'Vetinari']] (Appointment) 10:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC) Do you see what you just did? You introduced an unlikely possibility to cast doubt on the available evidence. That's exactly what I'm talking about. In order to say anything at all, we have to focus on the simplest explanation consistent with the evidence. In this case, the simplest explanation is that Frank's last name is Jones... Which is a bit of a non-sequitur anyway, because regardless of Grace's last name, the facts remain: # She's Indy's aunt, # she has a Scottish accent, and # her husband does not. Unless you can identify evidence to the contrary, these facts alone should lead us to the conclusion that she's Henry's sister. Why else would the creators give her a Scottish accent? If they didn't want to imply her relationship with Henry, they would have given her a Southern accent (like her husband), or perhaps a Mexican accent. (Note that this discussion has nothing to do with "retconning." That term refers to the occasions when an author deliberately changes previously established continuity in order to tell a new story. In doing so, the author may try to explain away the discrepancy, e.g. Obi-wan telling Luke that the Darth Vader killed his father is "true, from a certain point of view." Regardless, as fans we don't have any say in the matter; the new continuity is the truth, and if it contradicts the old continuity, the old continuity is false. Here, none of the evidence surrounding Grace Jones is contradictory. It's unusual that her maiden name would be the same as her married name, but not impossible. Now, if Lucasfilm were to release a spin-off novel, Aunt Grace and the Banditos of Terror, asserting that Frank's last name is Vetinari instead of Jones, that would be a retcon.) There's another way to slice this problem: look at the pros and cons of each approach. Let's say we err on the side of caution, and decide the evidence that Grace is Henry's sister just isn't compelling enough, so we leave the article as it is now. I can think of exactly one pro: when Aunt Grace and the Banditos of Terror comes out saying Grace is Anna's sister, we can say we didn't mislead anybody into thinking she was Henry's sister. But that's not much a pro, as Lucasfilm could change her name to Aunt Betty if they wanted to, making us liars despite our best efforts; and in any case, as soon as Banditos of Terror is released, we can correct the article. The cons to this approach are that our articles get cluttered (as this one has) with lengthy explanations of why we can't say definitively who Aunt Grace is. If, instead, we were to modify the article to say that Grace is Henry's sister, the pros and cons above would flip, of course, but there's also the added pro that the article is more complete and more insightful. Readers will wonder what it was like growing up with Henry Sr., instead of getting bogged down in philosophical arguments about the nature of truth in a fictional universe. Plus, think of the value to future Indy authors. We know they read this wiki, and many of them don't know as much about the Indy universe as we do. Settling on the notion (based on the evidence) that Grace is Henry's sister may very well prevent the author of Banditos of Terror from mistakenly making her Anna's sister (which I think we can all agree wouldn't make much sense, given her Scottish accent). So, what do you say? --Icybro 22:53, 26 April 2009 (UTC) *Except that you had Grace down as Henry's sister before the Lost Journal came out. I still think we should stick to fact and avoid speculation. Yes I agree that it makes more sense that she should be Henry's sister based on the accent alone, the problem is that little "c/o Frank Jones" in the Lost Journal adds doubt and your argument, no matter how well worded, does not make Grace = Henry's sister a fact. It's an opinion that you want verified (so do I) and becomes fanon in an encyclopedia that's supposed to reflect official information. You COULD argue that Anna going alone to New Mexico more than likely suggests she is blood relation to Fred based on accent than two Scottish siblings making homes in their adult life (at least Henry did) in the US. [[User:Vetinari|'Vetinari']] (Appointment) 23:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC) * Some thoughts: # Saying "Grace is Henry's sister" is not fanon. Saying "Indy divorced Marion and married Farrah Fawcett in the late 70's" is fanon. One is a reasoned conclusion based on all the available evidence (no more, no less). The other is a wholly new invention from the unhealthy mind of a rabid fan. There's a big difference. # Similarly, "Grace is Henry's sister" is not an opinion. It's a conclusion based on the evidence. ("Indiana Jones is the coolest archaeologist in history" is an opinion.) "Grace is Anna's sister" is another such conclusion—but it's not a very good one, because it contradicts the evidence: specifically, Grace's Scottish accent. Now, one could invent an elaborate story explaining why Grace, sister of Anna from Virginia, would have a Scottish accent (e.g. "they were separated at birth!"), but that would be wading into fanon territory. "Grace is Henry's sister, and she coincidentally married a man named Jones," requires no such invention; it follows logically from the evidence alone. As such, I contend that it is the best conclusion we can arrive at in this situation—and it sounds like we agree on this. # Nothing in this wiki is "fact," in the way you mean. It's all just conclusions based on evidence. It's not a "fact" that Indy married Marion. Sure, KOTCS ends with what appears to be a wedding ceremony, but maybe it was just the wedding rehearsal; maybe it was a dream sequence. In this case, we (perhaps subconsciously) weighed the evidence for and against various possibilities and collectively decided that the best conclusion is that Indy did indeed marry Marion. So that's what we write in Indy's bio. Why should this question about Aunt Grace be any different? # I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Lucasfilm to resolve the issue for us. She's barely an afterthought of a character, with maybe a minute of screen time. (And the Indy franchise isn't Star Wars, where every minor character gets an elaborate back story thanks to an endless number of comics, short story anthologies, and guide books. Let's face it: Aunt Grace and the Banditos of Doom is not likely to hit bookshelves anytime soon.) If they do clarify things, great, we can update the article then; but in the meantime, there's absolutely no reason not to write things the way we see them, as long as we can back up our claims with evidence... right? --Icybro 03:47, 27 April 2009 (UTC) *Just because one example is more outlandish than the other doesn't stop it being fanon. I think the article is fine in regards to this... mess. [[User:Vetinari|'Vetinari']] (Appointment) 20:03, 27 April 2009 (UTC) * You're absolutely right: outlandishness has nothing to do with it. "Grace is Henry's sister" is not fanon because it follows logically from the evidence. It's that simple. As I see it, the article in its current form is incomplete. I'm trying desperately to understand your argument why it should remain incomplete, but obviously I'm having some difficulty. Perhaps you could explain what criteria you use in classifying information like this as fit for inclusion in the wiki? What makes something "canon" as opposed to "fanon"? If it helps to look at a specific example: why should we allow it to be written that Grace's last name is Jones, but not allow the idea that Grace is Henry's sister? --Icybro 00:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC) ** I basically just don't think we know enough to simply state it as being correct and the behind the scenes info is a compromise to acknowledge it. The Lost Journal making Frank a Jones opens up too much room for doubt, as does Anna Jones visitng them twice for some reason). In my opinion. ;) [[User:Vetinari|'Vetinari']] (Appointment) 13:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC) * Well, that's not exactly an answer to my question, but I think we're making progress nonetheless. It sounds like your argument boils down to (and please correct me if I'm wrong here): # the in-universe evidence is somewhat contradictory # contradictory evidence invalidates any conclusion # the out-of-universe considerations (e.g. author's intentions) are irrelevant Let's look at these one at a time: # I can appreciate this point. The Scottish accent, considered on its own, leads one to believe Grace is Henry's sister; while the mention of "Frank Jones" in the Lost Journal, considered on its own, leads one to believe Fred is Henry's brother. (I don't think Anna's visits strongly suggest one conclusion or another; people visit their in-laws about as frequently as they visit their biological relatives.) # The question of how to deal with contradictory evidence is one that I find really interesting. (Thank you for bearing with these lengthy explorations of the subject.) Your solution, to table all conclusions until Leland Chee weighs in, does not seem very practical. For one thing, Chee has apparently been silent on Indy for over a year. Furthermore, if we were to apply this solution consistently, we'd have to purge the wiki of a fair amount of generally accepted information (e.g. Jock Lindsey's nationality and Belloq's first name). A more sophisticated approach is needed. It's important to note that when we talk about "contradictory evidence," what we really mean is that the conclusions drawn from these pieces of evidence (when examined in isolation) are contradictory. Grace can't be Henry's sister if her husband Fred is Henry's brother—unless we want to consider the possibility of inbreeding. However, if we re-examine all the evidence holistically, we can often arrive at a coherent explanation. Indy can have a Scottish aunt Grace, married to an American named Fred, with a son named Frank Jones. How? The most likely answer by far is that Scottish Henry Jones' sister Grace married American Fred Jones. (For cases where the evidence is not so easy to reconcile, it's worth remembering that not all evidence is created equal. That's why there are different levels of canon: evidence from the films trumps evidence from the YIJC TV show, which in turn trumps evidence from everything else. Remember, Grace's Scottish heritage is from the YIJC, while the other evidence is from the Lost Journal book.) # I don't agree that the author's intent should be considered off limits in such cases. In fact I'd argue that you don't really believe it either, because Leland Chee's pronouncements are nothing more than expressions of the author's (i.e. Lucasfilm's) intent. It's hard to justify the idea that the creators' intentions as voiced by Chee should be taken as gospel, but their intentions as evidenced in the material itself is not worth acknowledging. Anyway, I'm pretty convinced at this point that Grace is Henry's brother—could you tell? :-)—so unless someone makes a strong case against it, I'm inclined to update the article accordingly. --Icybro 04:26, 1 May 2009 (UTC) *Yeah, I'd already considered T canon trumps C, but what's been said with My First Adventure and the Lost Journal don't actually contradict by themselves because MFA doesn't say Grace = Henry's sister, it's just implicated by accent. I think we're gonna need more than our opinion on this one. ;) [[User:Vetinari|'Vetinari']] (Appointment) 12:53, 1 May 2009 (UTC) **What's contradictory about Belloq's first name? [[User:Vetinari|'Vetinari']] (Appointment) 12:59, 1 May 2009 (UTC) ***Spelling (René vs Rene). --Icybro 00:14, 2 May 2009 (UTC) ****Good to see the suggestion of a democratic approach worked. :p [[User:Vetinari|'Vetinari']] (Appointment) 16:50, 2 May 2009 (UTC) *****Sorry! I didn't understand your suggestion. By all means, if anybody else wants to weigh in, let's hear it. If not, though, I'm inclined to move forward with the change, for all the reasons listed above. --Icybro 21:45, 2 May 2009 (UTC) ******Two to one's enough for me either way. As long as someone doesn't come along and say they agree with both. ;) [[User:Vetinari|'Vetinari']] (Appointment) 06:19, 3 May 2009 (UTC) So really, we have two pieces of evidence: Grace's accent which has been assumed to be Scottish, and a letter addressed to Indy from Nancy, care of Frank Jones, which was received by Indy. Last summer, I emailed Pablo about the issue of Grace's exact relationship to Indy in light of the evidence, and his eventual response was that there was no official answer. If they don't have an answer (and didn't want to decide either way just to answer me), i'm inclined to leave the question open and point to the evidence in the behind the scenes section. Jawajames 22:41, 3 May 2009 (UTC) Alright. If a Lucasfilm rep says there's no answer to this question, I can live with that. I agree it's worth mentioning the evidence in the BTS section. The article's in reasonable shape right now, actually, after Vet's latest changes. --Icybro 02:30, 4 May 2009 (UTC)